A Skeptic’s Guide to HR Certification: Was it worth it
|
TLDR: Yes and no Yes:
No:
Ultimately, if it’s worth it for you is really up to you. You can definitely get things out of it, but not without a significant effort on your part. |
After completing the test, we drove to the place Krista was craving to pick up burritos, and we ate them in Dolores Park where we basked in the sun and our newfound freedom. First, we talked about what we were excited to do that evening because now we DIDN’T HAVE TO STUDY! We were excited to watch mindless TV, spend more time playing with our cats, and cook full meals rather than relying on frozen dinners or delivery.
But then our sense of responsibility kicked in, so we prioritized discussing our first reactions to finishing. Here’s what we covered…
Learning is fun; who knew?!
If you’ve read through the 4 blog posts before this, you already know: we are nerds. So it shouldn’t be surprising that we enjoyed learning. But after years of burnout leaving us uninspired, it was surprising to us!
Folks in HR are not always asked to learn and grow–to be honest, the bar is low for HR most of the time. In some ways, we got comfortable with what we knew and where we were in our careers. But as soon as we got a taste for learning and discussing, we were excited to keep doing it. A week after the test, we were searching for books we could read and discuss, ready to learn more (but this time, on our terms).
We don’t think we would have done that without taking this test. We gained a sense of accountability, which was an important motivator for us. Through that process, we found other motivators, specifically the joy that comes from gaining knowledge.
Embrace the challenge.
It’s surprisingly enjoyable to challenge ourselves and do something hard. As consultants, our role is to help others. As HR, our role is to help others. We do plenty of hard things in our day to day work, but never for the sake of the challenge. It felt unfamiliar to prioritize something that was not necessarily going to benefit someone else. But that kind of discomfort is good sometimes.
“Before this test, I never understood why people run marathons. It’s so hard. No one is forcing people to do it. They don’t do it as a source of income. They actively choose to do something really hard and painful.
That’s sort of how I feel about this test. All throughout studying I was wondering, “Why am I putting myself through this?” But when we finished, I felt proud of us. I felt a significant sense of accomplishment. In some ways, it made me want to try more hard things.
Not a marathon though...”
Best things we learned
The most interesting part of the content for us was the organizational psychology focus. We no longer remember the specific theories or theorists (they were mostly white men…), but we remember what they were getting at: To change behavior, we must understand where the behavior is coming from and what motivates individuals. Then, to effect change, we speak to that specific motivation.
It sounds obvious, and we were doing this implicitly (or explicitly using project management parlance for stakeholder engagement), but these chapters gave us a shared language to explicitly name and discuss more deeply. As we studied, we tried to apply the different theories to our current and past clients. This practice facilitated an improved understanding of actions that we hadn’t previously connected with.
We really don’t want to be done with this part of our HR education - so if anyone knows of more modern motivation theories, particularly those written by folks with marginalized identities, please let us know!
Worst things we learned (aka memorized and immediately forgot after the test)
When we started writing this section, we had a LONG list of items here. But we realized, that probably isn’t useful to inform your decision about taking this test. So instead, we’ll share what these things had in common.
We were most resentful when we had to memorize:
Things that we could easily google in the course of our day to day job (e.g. specific court case names and years)
Subjects that do not align with our personal or professional values (e.g. the section called “Remaining Union Free” comes to mind; we are both pro-union)
Vocabulary that is outdated with current practices (e.g. learning the difference between an “applicant tracking system” and “hiring management system”, when these days, the software is one and the same)
Consequences for doing a bad thing, rather than understanding why the action itself is bad (e.g. memorizing how much a business will be fined for violating child labor laws, rather than prioritizing not violating child labor laws)
Do we recommend it?
Yes, if you can write off the costs or if your employer will pay for it. There’s a lot you can get out of this process–we did!
No, if you already have a lot going on, you’ll have to pay for it yourself, and you already know enough to be good at your job.
To the organizations who only want to hire HR folks with a certification: we fundamentally disagree with your priorities here. Passing this test doesn’t mean someone is great at HR. Not passing this test does not mean someone is NOT great at HR.
It’s one piece of a much bigger picture. Please keep interviewing candidates without a certification. They bring valuable experiences and perspectives that candidates who do have a certification are not always bringing to the table.
Up next
This is the last post of our series… for now. We are participating in some of the continuing education opportunities provided through HRCI and want to update you all at some point about the value gained (or not) from them. We also are trying to measure if having the certification impacts our businesses positively (i.e. do we get more clients because we have this certification?). So, watch this space – we might have more to rant about!
In the meantime, if you end up taking the test, or if you choose not to, we want to hear why you chose that path. What tips do you have for others who are making this decision?
Coauthored with Krista Lane (Headwaters HR) (cross posted here)
A Skeptic’s Guide to HR Certification: Accommodations and Exam Day
As of February 2024, the SPHR exam is 2 hours and 30 minutes (150 minutes) with 115 exam questions (described as “mostly multiple choice”) and 25 pre-test questions. This feels intimidating, especially the first time you look at the exam questions; sometimes a question is a paragraph long and requires you to do math.
Also, there’s not a lot of information about what you can expect from the testing location or the process of taking the test. Hopefully this blog post will help fill in some gaps for you!
“The last standardized test I took was the ACT, and that was a miserable experience that happened more than 14 years ago. Needless to say, I was absolutely dreading actually taking this test. When I read about the amount of time and the number of questions, all I could think was: “That’s just over a minute to answer every question - and that’s without a break. HOW AM I GOING TO DO THIS?!” So, for me, Priority #1 was to apply for extra time.”
Accommodations process
|
TLDR: These instructions were not clearly written anywhere, and I wish they had been. So, I've put them here in hopes that it helps you. |
If you want to request accommodations for the test, you can indicate that when you apply and download a document that you’ll send to your physician. Because your physician has to sign it, you’ll finish the application without submitting the accommodations request.
However, HRCI does not make the process of submitting the physician-signed accommodations request easy. Eventually, I called them and was told to email a copy of the signed request to “certdirector [at] hrci.org”.
Once submitted, I heard back after 10 business days that my accommodations were approved. As a heads up, if you requested accommodations, you cannot sign up for an exam date until your accommodations are approved. For me, that meant, though I applied for the exam on 1/11/24, I did not receive approval to sign up for a test until 2/2/24. This was longer than I expected to wait and gave me a bit of anxiety, so I wanted to share in case it provides a comparison timeline for others.
| Applied for the exam | 1/11/24 |
| Accommodations form sent to my physician | 1/11/24 |
| Accommodations form returned from my physician | 1/15/24 |
| Dates spent trying to figure out how to submit accommodations | 1/16/24 - 1/22/24 |
| Accommodations sent to HRCI | 1/22/24 |
| Accommodations approved by HRCI | 2/2/24 |
| Signed up for my exam date | 2/2/24 |
| Exam date | 2/27/24 |
Was it necessary?
I ended up completing the test within the original timeframe, including taking a break. So, the work I put into request extra time wasn’t strictly necessary, though I do think it helped my anxiety to know that I had plenty of time.
My original concern was that I would only have ~1 minute to answer every question. However, once I started studying, I quickly learned that there would be many questions I could answer in less than 10 seconds, giving me plenty of time to read through the longer scenario questions. So, as you’re deciding, remember that answering the questions will get much easier and faster as you familiarize yourself with the material and the phrasing of the questions.
Mindset preparation
|
TLDR: here are the steps that we took to ensure we had a clear mindset going into the exam on the testing day: |
We shared in Part 3 about our study habits, and we think one of the best choices we made was to start Early Morning Studying several weeks before the test. This was particularly important for us because we are not morning people. However, practicing in the morning helped train our brains to focus on the test material in the morning which made for an easier transition on the test day itself.
Then, starting about 4 days before the test, we tried to go to bed early and get up early, that way the test day would be less of a shock to us—sort of like prepping for a vacation and trying to avoid jetlag… except without the reward of a vacation on the other side 🙃
Our Morning-of-the-Exam Pro Tips:
“A hearty breakfast with protein and carbs, comfortable clothing with layers, pump-up music for traveling there, and packing snacks for possible breaks.”
“I followed a similar important-day hygiene routine as AnnE, but also explicitly imagined the meal I’d be eating afterward and the way my day would look after the exam was over.”
Testing center and logistics
To our surprise, the testing center itself was fantastic. We took our test at Pearson Professional Centers in Daly City, CA. They sent helpful instructions in advance that are worth reading thoroughly! AnnE missed the part about earplugs and noise canceling headphones completely when she read it (Krista did see it, but found the options provided were each more uncomfortable than helpful - disposable foam or those super-tight over-ear muffs used for heavy equipment). It’s unclear whether these were only offered because of nearby construction noise, or if they are always available.
For screenreaders, the text says: Pearson VUE’s goal is to make your exam experience a pleasant one. We want to thank you for selecting Pearson VUE as your exam service provider, and we look forward to serving you again. Please feel free to contact us with you comments or questions. Our contact information can be found on our website: www.pearsonvue.com/contact.
Sincerely,
Peason VUE
Directions to Test Center
Center: PEARSON PROFESSIONAL CENTERS-DALY CITY CA
How to get there:
Please note that at the Daly City Center Site we are currently experience construction noise. We offer earplugs and noise canceling headphones to each candidate to help reduce the impact of the construction sounds. We apologize for the inconvenience.
We arrived about 30 minutes before our testing time and followed the check-in process at the testing center. Many people were there checking in for different tests, but the process was organized and clear for each of us. Once we completed the check-in, we put everything we couldn’t bring inside the testing room in small lockers in the lobby.
Test takers were each escorted individually into the testing area. The staff provided earplugs and a small white board and dry-erase pen to use for notes. They also checked to make sure we did not have anything in our pockets or socks. Before we entered the testing room, we were instructed to raise our hand if we needed anything and a staff member would come in to assist us. Other than that, we should plan to not speak or look around while in the testing room.
The desks had a computer monitor, keyboard, and mouse, as well as additional over-ear noise reducing headphones. There were dividers between each desk. The chairs were rolling office chairs that had some padding on the seat and back, and they had armrests that could be adjusted (Krista’s chair could not be adjusted in any dimension and was lower than she would have preferred, so she spent the test reliving a childhood of chest-high tables-- your mileage may vary).
The staff logged us into the computer and we could then begin the test.
“I took one bathroom/snack break during the test because I knew I had plenty of time. I took the break when I had finished all of the questions, but had not gone back through to review questions I had flagged yet. This was a good time for me to reset and ensure I gave an appropriate amount of focus to reviewing the flagged questions.”
About the test
We will not be sharing any specific questions that were on the test because
1) that is not allowed,
2) we don’t really remember to be honest, it was a blur, and
3) the test has changed since we took it so any tips on questions would not be helpful anyway.
That said, there were definitely some things we wondered in advance of the test that we want to tell you in case it helps you prepare.
There is a way to flag questions to come back to. When you’re taking the test, there is an option on the computer to mark questions you want to come back to. It was particularly helpful because at the end of the test, there was an option to review all the flagged questions at once. You could also see any questions you hadn’t answered (or hadn’t answered completely).
There is a calculator available on the computer. We tried to practice doing the math in our heads because no HRCI resources clearly communicated if we would have access to a calculator or pen/paper for notes. Ultimately for our test, the computer did have a calculator and we had a small dry-erase board for notes. We don’t know if that’s true for all tests, but it was for ours.
Every question was multiple choice. Many test preparation resources say that questions are mostly multiple choice, but there may be some fill-in-the-blank. For our test, if there was a “fill-in-the-blank” question, the choices for the blank were available as multiple choice. We did not have to type in an answer.
The scenario questions were very similar to each other and required us to read very carefully. We noticed that the scenario questions were basically the same, with usually just one difference. That difference did change the answer, so make sure you’re reading the scenario questions carefully!
The UI for the test is old school. This will probably not surprise anyone, but the user interface for the test is not new, innovative, or attractive. But it works and is mostly clear.
After the test
After completing the test, we were escorted out of the testing room to complete the “check-out” process. We finished at different times, but our process was the same: turn in the dry-erase board, and stop at the reception desk, who gave us our printed results right away. (Based on HRCI’s instructions, it wasn’t clear if that would happen.) You don’t receive a specific score - instead, you find out if you passed overall, and roughly how you did in each specific section relative to the other sections.
“BIG shout out to the staff at the Pearson center who checked us in, answered our questions, made us laugh, and generally created a great experience. When the person at the front desk gave me my printed results, she asked excitedly, “How’d you do?!” and gave me an enthusiastic high five when I told her I passed. Small human moments like this make a huge difference on stressful days!”
Knowing immediately after the test that we passed was a HUGE relief. We immediately went to celebrate by eating burritos in the sunshine in the park together. We blocked off the rest of the day and were happy we did, because between the preparation process and the test itself we were TIRED and grateful to have the afternoon to rest and relax.
Coauthored with Krista Lane (Headwaters HR) (cross posted here)
A Skeptic’s Guide to HR Certification: How we prepared
As an experiment where we were already biased as skeptics, we wanted to minimize costs and time spent — but as recovering overachievers, we also didn’t want to risk failing. So, in hindsight our study plan was probably more ambitious than it needed to be.
|
TLDR: Here are the materials and resources we found most valuable in our process…
Here’s what we don’t recommend… |
Materials and Resources
What worked well for us:
Study partners all the way: We skipped test prep classes. Most cost nearly double the exam fee itself! And, we figured the main benefit of prep courses is accountability, which we could provide one another. This ended up being a huge advantage, but we are already colleagues who collaborate well together, so it was not surprising that this would be effective.
Pocket Prep: We found Pocket Prep when Krista scoured Reddit for more intel on the exam. This turned out to be our favorite paid resource (at $20.99 for one month), but it probably wouldn’t be enough to pass by itself.
It wasn’t perfect but it gave hands-down the best explanations— with citations — for answers compared to all the resources we used, including those created by HRCI. Plus, it was easier to carry around and casually study 5-10 questions on-the-go compared to sitting down with the books. The real-time statistics feature also helped measure our progress and guide where to focus our efforts.
Books: We highly recommend sourcing exam prep books from your local library or second hand because they are pretty expensive. AnnE’s branch of the San Francisco Public Library library didn’t have them in stock right away, but they were able to order them and they arrived within a week. Krista ended up investing in a “used” copy of the HRCI Body of Knowledge (“used” because it arrived still plastic-wrapped, but 40% discounted; purchased because the library did not have it) and it was a surprisingly helpful supplement to our other resources. Our preferred books were:
HRCI Body of Knowledge: helpful for specific definitions, a dense legal appendix, and understanding the traditional HR perspective that informs the exam
PHR and SPHR: Complete Study Guide: chapters mirror the different exam focuses, which provided structure for our studying
PHR/SPHR Exam for Dummies: helpful for some of the nuance in this test and for specific test preparation recommendations
What did not work for us:
HRCI Practice Exam: Krista bought a practice exam through the HRCI website, but this turned out to be a dud. The pitch was being able to take it unlimited times within ~6 months and seeing how you performed in each subject area. However, the practice exam was only 30 questions and cost $75 (update: as of May 2024, it is listed as $85 on the HRCI website). Krista bought it thinking maybe the 30 questions would change each time you took the exam, or at least fully represent the range of question formats you might see-- but both assumptions turned out to be incorrect.
The most upsetting part is the test would tell you which questions you got wrong, but gave an insufficient explanation about why (e.g. “C is the correct answer because D, B, and A are not”). We were so confused about how this resource could possibly be so unhelpful – yet cost more than a book with hundreds of practice questions – that we even called HRCI customer support to confirm these weren’t bugs in the online platform (they were not).
PHR/SPHR Exam Guide Second Edition: this book was not organized in a way that we found particularly useful. The practice exam questions were very different from what we found on the exam. Also, enough of the stated answers to the practice questions were wrong (they contradicted information both in the chapters, as well as information in other resources), that we lost trust in it.
“Navigating the HRCI website to find resources, books, practice tests, etc. was a challenge that I recommend avoiding at all costs. The information we found on Reddit and in blog posts was much more helpful (which is part of why we are writing this!).”
Study Plan
HRCI’s SPHR exam focuses on 6 subject areas. The weight (how important each subject is for scoring) changes for each exam year. The weighting influenced how we prioritized each subject area, but we did still want to cover all 6 subjects to ensure cursory coverage across the board.
We divided the subject areas so each of us would be responsible for half of the overall exam weight. We made Mondays and Fridays “teaching days” where we’d spend an hour teaching the other what we learned, and the rest of the week we’d read and organize our assigned material. We covered all 6 subject areas within 2 weeks and then reverse-taught the same subjects.
The process of preparing materials to teach was educational in and of itself. It’s one thing to read a chapter for yourself, but quite another to teach someone else what’s relevant or important about it, and trim that to a 30-45 minute lecture. Making slides or a Figma flow chart to represent details that were difficult to unpack in text alone solidified a lot of information. This is probably pedagogy 101 (eventually we even read “teach someone else the material” as a suggestion in the PHR/SPHR Exam For Dummies book, which validated our efforts), but in general we found it helpful to approach the material from different angles to let it really sink in.
We initially thought we’d need to prioritize focus areas that were the most vague/broad to us (“Leadership & Strategy” and “Employee Relations”) because we suspected we’d have more to learn in those areas. However, we were surprised to discover that we had quite a bit to memorize in every focus area, including those in which we consider ourselves to be experts.
Combined, we have 20 years of experience in recruiting and HR for large global tech companies, small startups, and non-profit organizations. But because the SPHR exam would consider tools like Greenhouse to be a “Hiring Management System” (HMS) rather than an “Applicant Tracking System” (ATS), which is what we call it in practice, we confidently missed many questions on our first practice test. This meant we had to spend time memorizing terms with little practical use in our day-to-day HR work, but that we’d need to pass the exam. (You will find yourself doing a lot of this if you decide to pursue one of these exams. But that also means that when you finish, there’s a lot of information you can immediately forget!)
Study buddies
One of our biggest takeaways from this process is that we might well have not passed the test – and we would’ve definitely resented the process more – if we studied exclusively on our own.
Studying together and teaching each other held us accountable, but also gave us space to rant, ask each other questions, and dive deeper into some rabbit holes than we might have done otherwise. These rabbit holes also led to some interesting discussions about HR that even clarified our own values as we continued to advise clients in their People strategies.
Serious benefits aside, we also found some levity by texting each other real-time reactions to interesting (and infuriating) things we learned in our solo study time.
For screen readers, the screenshot of the exam question says: “Why is it important to utilize personality assessments to assess candidates who are being considered for leadership roles in an organization.” The screen shot shows the wrong answer that was selected: “To learn how the candidate relates to others in leadership roles". The correct answer is, “To identify those who have the right skills to achieve strategic outcomes.” (Other descriptors of this image can be found in the alt text.)
To be clear, studying was alongside our regular work. We both ended up giving up most of our solo recreation time to study, which we wouldn’t recommend in the future, but was OK for a temporary push. But if you decide to work full-time along with studying, and don’t give yourself much time, please do yourself the favor of doing it with another incredible human like we did.
Next week, we’ll share details about applying for the exam, getting accommodations, and taking the exam itself! (All steps we are convinced we would not have survived without each other’s support!)
Coauthored with Krista Lane (Headwaters HR) (cross posted here)
A Skeptic’s Guide to HR Certification: Why we did it
Maybe it’s easier to start with why we didn’t want to. We each spent 8+ years working in HR without any HR certification. Nevertheless, we received promotions, job offers, etc. We were (and still are!) good at our jobs, without needing to take a test to prove it.
“If I’m honest, until I was consulting I didn’t even consider certification in HR. With family including nurses and first responders, I see vocational credentials for such life-altering privileges as essential, but as an advocate for non-traditional career pathways I am also highly skeptical of most other credentialing programs.”
We think this is probably BS
These, like many exams, don’t teach practical knowledge or represent skills learned. They are — at best — crude proxies for skill that more accurately demonstrate test-taking abilities, or — at worst — are unnecessary hoops (financial and otherwise) that gatekeep professional titles and salaries and perpetuate inequitable systems.
Most mentors of ours validated our dismissal of HR certifications. Some had checked that box earlier in their careers but eventually let their memberships lapse. Others were adamantly against them. But a surprising number of peers and mentees asked, “Really? We can just… not do this?”
Simultaneously, as the rollercoaster of the market bottomed out once again, we started noticing job-searching peers complaining that more employers seemed to be demanding HR certifications, or even HR specific degrees, in their job descriptions.
We started wondering how authoritative our bubble of anti-credentialism really was, without having even attempted the exam. How can we say “this is BS” so definitively, without having taken or passed an exam?
Exam benefits we considered
We’d be lying if we didn’t say one of the “pros” to trying this out was for prospective financial gain: most of the pro-arguments we found point to credentials leading to higher salaries.
While we are consultants (so a salary increase may not be easily measurable) we predicted an upside could be diversifying our client portfolio to include those who don’t already know us. Another benefit could be growing our network by sharing our experience, which could lead to future opportunities in the short or long term.
Of course, our hypothesis is also that this won’t lead to any tangible benefit, so we had to be prepared to eat the cost (in money and time) if none of this worked out. A few months later, we can’t definitively say if any new clients chose us because of our certification, but inbound attention hasn’t significantly changed.
Choosing a certification
Once we decided to give this a shot, the question became “which one?” The two main certifications in our field are sponsored by SHRM and HRCI. Fun fact: HRCI is a circa 1970s spin-off of SHRM, but both maintained a partnership until 2015, when a nebulous rift led to each org administering and issuing its own certification exams. Since this whole endeavor is, for us, a low-stakes experiment, we didn’t rabbit-hole too hard on this question (though it does seem like some juicy ~drama~ probably lurks below the surface!). Despite SHRM’s more prominent global brand having been ‘around’ longer, given SHRM’s sketchy record on equity issues, we chose to focus our efforts on HRCI.
Within HRCI, there were several certificate options for various levels of experience and focus areas. We selected SPHR (Senior Professional in Human Resources) because our consulting work is focused more on HR strategy, which aligns with the SPHR test. aPHR seems to be best for folks just starting out in the industry and PHR is most relevant to professionals who are working on HR operations and implementation.
“I had some imposter syndrome about trying for the “Senior” exam title, especially because I have been told many times in my career that I’m not “senior” enough. But in hindsight, it’s not really about seniority at all - the tests just cover different topics. We had to study some PHR chapters because some topics do come up on the SPHR test. But overall, PHR is geared towards folks who are more in the weeds in HR operations, and SPHR focuses more on the strategies that shape those operations. We chose the certification most relevant to our day-to-day work. It wasn’t about the overarching title.”
We’d floated the idea of this experiment a couple months earlier, and we applied for eligibility to take the exam in January 2024 to get the ball rolling. After a lengthy process for AnnE to get approval for testing accommodations (more on that in this post), on February 2nd, we finally said “let’s just do it now” and signed up for an exam on February 27.
This was a quick turnaround time. Most resources recommend 3+ months of studying, but the exam was going to be updated on March 1st, 2024. Plus, we’re particularly good at tight deadlines.
So then, all we had to do was study. More on that in our post next week!
Coauthored with Krista Lane (Headwaters HR) (cross posted here)
A Skeptic's Guide to HR Certification: Part 1
After about a year of debating about if we should get an HR certification, we decided to do it, but not because we had learned that it was necessary and important. Rather, we wanted to learn if it was necessary and important.
In January 2024, when we applied for the test, we were definitely skeptics. (Spoiler alert: we still are.) But we decided that For Science, we’d take the SPHR (Senior Professional of Human Resources) exam through HRCI so we could know for sure.
Throughout the application, study, and test taking process, we took notes on our experience so at the end of this chaotic adventure, we could write the resource we wish we had when we started. And this blog series is that resource!
We have 2 goals:
Share our takeaways from the study + test experience to help other HR professionals decide if they also want to take this journey.
De-mystify the application, study, and exam process for anyone who decides to pursue a certification.
| TLDR on the whole series: |
| (Though we do hope you read all of it, because there’s more nuance than we can summarize here!) |
|
What to expect from this series
We’ve broken up our experience into 4 sections (not including this one!):
A Skeptic’s Guide to HR Certification: Why we did this - our motivations and certification selection (6/11/2024)
A Skeptic’s Guide to HR Certification: How we prepared - resources that were most (and least) helpful (6/18/2024)
A Skeptic’s Guide to HR Certification: Accommodations and exam day - how to request accommodations and what to expect on exam day (6/25/2024)
A Skeptic’s Guide to HR Certification: Was it worth it - our takeaways about the process including our overall recommendation about taking the test (7/2/2024)
We wrote this series for:
HR professionals with any level of experience who are considering pursuing a certification
HR professionals who decide to pursue an HRCI certification
Teams who are hiring HR professionals and want to know what it means to acquire an HR certification
HR is a team sport
We prepared for this test and wrote these posts as a team. We encourage you all to do the same! And we don’t want to be the only voices sharing our experience. Please comment on the blogs,on our Linkedin posts, or reach out to us directly through our websites. We’re all about community and we want to learn from y’all as well!
Coauthored with Krista Lane (Headwaters HR) (cross posted here)